http://www.ritlabs.com New posts in Images in email vs. NOT of forum at www.ritlabs.com [www.ritlabs.com] en http://backend.userland.com/rss2 Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:35:19 +0300 Images in email vs. NOT just curious about people's viewpoints in forum The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client.
Before we're starting a shouting contest here, I'd like to close the topic. I guess it's up to the developers now.
28 August 2005 16:35:19, Roelof Otten.]]> http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message7452/ http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message7452/ Sun, 28 Aug 2005 16:35:19 +0300 The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client Images in email vs. NOT just curious about people's viewpoints in forum The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client.
I'm absolutely against this!

Currently the Bat! is rock-solid secure e-mail client. Nobody has ever got any virus or privacy invasion through using it.

When [mis]features like external images would be implemented - the Bat! will loose it's high reputation - more and more users will be compromised.
Why not to use OE|Outlook if one needs such a bloatware?!

28 August 2005 14:24:50, n.a. n.a..]]> http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message7451/ http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message7451/ Sun, 28 Aug 2005 14:24:50 +0300 The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client Images in email vs. NOT just curious about people's viewpoints in forum The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client.
This is something I would love to see. I just started using The Bat in parallel with Thunderbird (been on tbird since early beta) and I'm really impressed and I love alot of the features. The only thing I don't like is that I'm told I'm not intelligent enough to know what I can and cannot view in an email message.

Why not allow this to happen but disable it from the start, nine times out of ten it's going to be out of sight out of mind.

Other than that I think this is a sweet program. Keep up the good work.
25 August 2005 09:36:56, Ron Hines.]]> http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message7424/ http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message7424/ Thu, 25 Aug 2005 09:36:56 +0300 The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client Images in email vs. NOT just curious about people's viewpoints in forum The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client.

====quote====
Brian E wrote:
We have discussed that issue and agree it should be implemented in The Bat!
=============

Amazing Brian E!

Thank you so much for taking the initiative on sending this into them.  I would definitely not have expected that reaction from the devs.

01 July 2005 15:45:33, Kevin Jones.]]> http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6990/ http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6990/ Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:45:33 +0300 The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client Images in email vs. NOT just curious about people's viewpoints in forum The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client.

====quote====
Brian E wrote:
We cannot give you an approximate date when it will
be available but I can say that it is one of the features to be added in future.
=============

Some light on the horizon at least.

01 July 2005 15:31:23, Brian E.]]> http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6989/ http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6989/ Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:31:23 +0300 The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client Images in email vs. NOT just curious about people's viewpoints in forum The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client.
I've sent this to The Bat! developers. Their reply is included:-

On Thursday, June 30th, 2005, at 20:05:29 GMT +01:00 (WEST) (at the same time
it was 30/06/2005, 22:05:29 my local time), you wrote (at least in part):

BE>     Would  you  please  have a look at this thread in the forum and give me
BE>     your comments.


This is certainly a good idea. We have discussed that issue and agree it should
be implemented in The Bat!. We cannot give you an approximate date when it will
be available but I can say that it is one of the features to be added in future.

--
Best regards,
Alexander Petrari

01 July 2005 15:29:54, Brian E.]]> http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6988/ http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6988/ Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:29:54 +0300 The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client Images in email vs. NOT just curious about people's viewpoints in forum The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client.

====quote====
nlkes wrote:
then the sending engine should be fixed, so that it can embed images
=============
Unfortunately that's not possible from an engineering standpoint due to the construction of MIVA merchant modules.


====quote====
nlkes wrote:
an e-mail is an e-mail - the message should be complete in itself! if that's not possible then use an online page and send an link to your customers.
=============
In most situations I would agree with you.  In this example I don't have control over the message being sent for the reason stated above, and the email in question is being sent to ME only.  My customer’s are sent emails with no images; besides, I have no control over which email client they choose anyway.

All I’m asking for is the ability to add my domain to a white-list on MY email client.  I know that purists feel strongly against any holes whatsoever, but I think their arguments are solely based on principal, rather than practicality.  I’m confident that ritlabs’ engineers could find a way to make this happen with no risk to those who don’t know any better; even if that meant making a separate version of TB with reduced security for people like me.


====quote====
nlkes wrote:
then it is probable that a substantial amount of users will turn it on _without_ really knowing the implications!
=============
I think users of TB tend to be very advanced users that know what they're doing, but even if they weren't, it could be made VERY VERY difficult to turn on the functionality.  Maybe only through the manual editing of an INI file or something.  Anyone doing that would be well aware of the risks, and have a specific reason for unlocking it.
01 July 2005 13:29:38, Kevin Jones.]]> http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6984/ http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6984/ Fri, 01 Jul 2005 13:29:38 +0300 The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client Images in email vs. NOT just curious about people's viewpoints in forum The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client.
sorry, Kevin - but then the sending engine should be fixed, so that it can embed images, not the receiving mail client should be "corrected" to have potential privacy (and possibly security) issues for all users!

an e-mail is an e-mail - the message should be complete in itself! if that's not possible then use an online page and send an link to your customers.

all of this HTML mail stuff is becoming more and more an issue since phishers misuse exactly the same features - more over (regarding all those user's habits tracking schemes out there) mail bugs are still a concern.

If TB would get an option to show those risky images, then it is probable that a substantial amount of users will turn it on _without_ really knowing the implications! TB is (to my mind) a very security sensitive mail client, usually not allowing its users to fall for those traps... I think, it should stay this way!

security and functionality are _always_ enemies to a certain degree - please do not ask the develeoprs to repeat the (hopefully former) MS failures in TB and put "just another" feature in... else next year someone may ask for JavaScript interpreation in mail messages, becaus his system really needs this as a business necessity, so that his customers can interact with his server from within the mail messages...

just my 2 cents (or mayhap three ,-)
01 July 2005 09:33:06, nlkes.]]> http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6982/ http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6982/ Fri, 01 Jul 2005 09:33:06 +0300 The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client Images in email vs. NOT just curious about people's viewpoints in forum The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client.

====quote====
John Campion wrote:
I don't want to see inline images in my HTML messages, ever
=============

So leave the setting in the default position: OFF.  What’s so hard about that?

The software could have functionality that you don’t ever use, and the email experience would be exactly the same as it is now.


Most people think that there is no good reason for external images to be displayed, but good reasons ARE out there, and this is one of them:

I print packing slips and order documents through email for my online business. The Miva modules that send these emails to me from my shopping cart system don’t have the capability of embedding images within the email, so external linking is the only way.  Being able to print these messages with the images intact is a BUSINESS NECESSITY for me.
30 June 2005 13:59:44, Kevin Jones.]]> http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6977/ http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6977/ Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:59:44 +0300 The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client Images in email vs. NOT just curious about people's viewpoints in forum The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client.

====quote====
Jim Drews wrote:
So what's wrong with giving users a choice? Make it configurable so that those that want it can use it, those that don't can turn it off.
=============

Exactly! It could be set to "off" by default. Perhaps the developers of TB have too many customers to care whether they lose some more by not providing features to keep everyone happy. I can't believe that such a simple thing as this is such a big deal that a certain group of users and potential users have to have their wishes overriden for no logical reason.
30 June 2005 07:02:30, Brian E.]]> http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6973/ http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6973/ Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:02:30 +0300 The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client Images in email vs. NOT just curious about people's viewpoints in forum The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client.

====quote====
Marck Pearlstone wrote:
... and while the vociferous minority shout and scream that they want The Bat! to connect and download out-of-line images, the vast majority of the user base share the opinion that it is a step too far.
=============

So what's wrong with giving users a choice? Make it configurable so that those that want it can use it, those that don't can turn it off.

30 June 2005 06:40:26, Jim Drews.]]> http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6972/ http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6972/ Thu, 30 Jun 2005 06:40:26 +0300 The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client Images in email vs. NOT just curious about people's viewpoints in forum The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client.
... and while the vociferous minority shout and scream that they want The Bat! to connect and download out-of-line images, the vast majority of the user base share the opinion that it is a step too far.

There will always be two views on this topic and both views have been extremely eloquently aired on (for example) the TBUDL mailing list. There is nothing new in the thread here. It's all been said before and the suggestions suggested before.

What counts is what the developers will do; what decision they take. So far they have remained silent on this issue. I can draw a parallel however. Last year, 9val implemented "Roguemoticons". We on the TBUDL gathered a database gallery of "rogue" images (user photos). 9val implemented support for displaying rogue pictures in the message heading panel. Senders can reference their rogue image for the recipients to access by using an "x-rogue: xxxx" header, where xxx is the handle of their roguemoticon.

Rogue image libraries are manually downloaded and held in an "Images" folder of the main The Bat! program folder - a manual exercise. For a short while, in the beta test of this feature, 9val implemented a query of the Rogue MySQL database and auto-retrieval of the image. There was utter FURY from the members. The remote connection capability (even though it was from a fixed, known, trusted server) was removed immediately.

That shows how unwelcome are connections to any other than mail / security related servers.

I'm still not saying who's right and who's wrong. There are a couple of daily catalogue HTML mails I get that would be "nice" to see images in. It's not vital though.
30 June 2005 05:25:08, Marck Pearlstone.]]> http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6970/ http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6970/ Thu, 30 Jun 2005 05:25:08 +0300 The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client Images in email vs. NOT just curious about people's viewpoints in forum The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client.
As a long-time user of "The Bat!", I honestly don't see the point. I don't want to see inline images in my HTML messages, ever, unless they have been sent along as attachments with the message.

I can see why some users may *want* that feature, but at the same time it is not a sensible feature to implement. Not to make too fine a point of it, but: Sometimes people want things that aren't in their own best interest.

Btw, the vast majority of the e-mail I receive is ASCII, not HTML. When I *do* receive HTML mail with images on a remote server, I look at the message source code, determine whether I really want to look at it and then cut and paste the URL into the address bar of my browser. Easy peasy.
30 June 2005 03:23:53, moatmai.]]> http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6968/ http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6968/ Thu, 30 Jun 2005 03:23:53 +0300 The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client Images in email vs. NOT just curious about people's viewpoints in forum The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client.
YES!

This is the single feature holding TheBat! back for me...

It used to be no big deal when the majority of messages were text.  Now, however, the majority seem to be HTML.

John
29 June 2005 14:47:07, John Campion.]]> http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6958/ http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6958/ Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:47:07 +0300 The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client Images in email vs. NOT just curious about people's viewpoints in forum The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client.
I haven’t emailed the developers, but I'm guessing they've thought of this sort of thing already, and decided not to implement it.  Poor show if you ask me.
29 June 2005 13:13:10, Kevin Jones.]]> http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6953/ http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6953/ Wed, 29 Jun 2005 13:13:10 +0300 The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client Images in email vs. NOT just curious about people's viewpoints in forum The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client.

====quote====
Kevin Jones wrote:
Under Account Properties:

General
Transport
Mail Management
Options
Files and directories
Templates
Sound
Network
Memo
Chat
IMAGE HANDLING

3 radio buttons:

1) Don’t allow any external image links
2) Allow all external image links
3) Only allow image links from allowed domains
=============
This sounds like a great idea. Have you e-mailed the developers?
29 June 2005 07:15:18, Brian E.]]> http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6940/ http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6940/ Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:15:18 +0300 The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client Images in email vs. NOT just curious about people's viewpoints in forum The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client.
YES!

TB is the most powerful, versatile email client in existence; users can customize virtually every facet of the email experience.  Why not this!

I own an online business, my company order processing and printing is largely dependent on email, and the ability to print graphics is an absolute must.  I love every other aspect of TB, but until this gets *fixed* I’m stuck using Outlook Express.

Under Account Properties:

General
Transport
Mail Management
Options
Files and directories
Templates
Sound
Network
Memo
Chat
IMAGE HANDLING

3 radio buttons:

1) Don’t allow any external image links
2) Allow all external image links
3) Only allow image links from allowed domains

If option three is selected, a user configurable box below becomes available for user input of allowed domain names.

Pretty simple.

29 June 2005 01:32:14, Kevin Jones.]]> http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6928/ http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6928/ Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:32:14 +0300 The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client Images in email vs. NOT just curious about people's viewpoints in forum The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client.
User should have ability to choose. This issue is solved in Gmail very well - when you open letter, images that are hotlinked from sites ar not shown, but you can press one link and they all appears.
02 June 2005 07:14:06, Kelmas.]]> http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6180/ http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6180/ Thu, 02 Jun 2005 07:14:06 +0300 The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client Images in email vs. NOT just curious about people's viewpoints in forum The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client.
I realize the security risk is there that spammers would receive confirmation of receipt with image, however that would be a non-issue because of the whitelist and default to off.
27 May 2005 20:44:23, Kevin Johnson.]]> http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6042/ http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6042/ Fri, 27 May 2005 20:44:23 +0300 The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client Images in email vs. NOT just curious about people's viewpoints in forum The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client.
I think is a must. One more tab(configurable), and to not be by default when you click on message will be nice. What sense has to see html without images? The text can be striped from html allways... But that HTML with broken images is making all OE users to think "thebat is broken" and looks damn bad.

The "security" risk consist in:
- somebody can see the IP of reader(and that can be done by sending some stupid email to him asking "you come?" without any sense and to make him reply)
- tracking of spam(confirmation that email is valid and used)

Other security risks I don't see...
27 May 2005 11:28:45, Dico Emil.]]> http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6032/ http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6032/ Fri, 27 May 2005 11:28:45 +0300 The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client Images in email vs. NOT just curious about people's viewpoints in forum The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client.
I know this has been requested tons of times for a year at least... this is not intended as a request.

Rather, now that there is a TheBat! forum, I would like to hear from various people on their feelings on this issue.  Since there isn't a poll option on this forum, please begin your post by saying YES! or NO!.

I know there are a few that are violently opposed to the ability to download images into email messages.  My personal view is that it would be very handy if done correctly, as everyone is suggesting where there is only a whitelist allowed to download message images and no scripting is enabled, and it is set to off by default.  I would use it for several newsletters that I am subscribed to.

One of the issues mentioned with downloading images is that it is a security risk.  Can anyone explain how this could be so if there is no scripting and image downloads are only allowed from your whitelist?  I don't understand how there could be a risk with that.

I would very much like to hear from everyone who has an opinion on this subject (including the developers and moderators if possible!)

Thank you!
-Kevin
26 May 2005 12:47:40, Kevin Johnson.]]> http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6012/ http://www.ritlabs.com/en/forums/forum4/topic1445/message6012/ Thu, 26 May 2005 12:47:40 +0300 The Bat! - Configuring the E-mail Client