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The Bat or Thunderbird?, Should I upgrade or go for Thunderbird?
 
I am using version 2.04.7 Business Edition and I am at a crossroads.

I am using The Bat to administrate a lot of different mailaccounts for different domains, and wonder if I should upgrade or if I should go for Thunderbird.

Does anyone here have any opinion or know of any comparison The Bat/Thunderbird? Obviously, there is a pricedifference. But what else?

One thing that is sure - I really want to get rid of Outlook. But at the moment, Outlook has a plug-in called Plaxo. That plug-in is making my day quite a bit easier. I have heard it is coming for Thunderbird. But no news about The Bat.

So I am currently running two mailprograms. One for my mainaccount (Outlook) and one for all others (The Bat)
Regards,

Oceanwatcher
 
well it depends on your needs, if you just hate outlook and you want something flashy to replace it, you need rss feeds, or that plugin you've mentioned is important to you then thunderbird is a way to go.

there are hundreds of reasons why i hate bat, but to compare it to thunderbird as a mail client - that must be a joke  :D  
 
Well... I do not hate The Bat at all!

And I do not think it is a joke at all to compare. It is the only way one can find out what is better for your needs.

So let me see a comparison. Why is The Bat better? What does it have that Thunderbird do not have?

I gues it is a feeling inside to try to justify spending money on an upgrade when there is something free..
Regards,

Oceanwatcher
 
well, you are the one that really should do comparison since you are the only one that can separate what is relevant and what's not.

what i think is better in bat:
ugly, but much more powerful customization of menus, toolbars, views, color groups. server exclusion from mail check, custom headers, templates, virtual folders, superior address book, openpgp integration.

what i think is better in thunder:
calypso-like "header only" retrieval. global inbox option. news & rss management (if you need that in mail reader). open source and popularity/support.

is the difference worth the money, i'm really not sure. i myself use calypso-courier, and still consider it king of e-mail clients. but since it wasn't really upgraded in last 5 years i look at the bat as an alternative. still, for a lot of html or an office installation i would probably go thunderbird/oe way  :D  
 
bat: simple looks, skinable, sorting office that whips thunder's ass, "header-only" retrieval, you can make global inbox ....

thunder: hmmm open source.

Leave rss for the browsers and rss readers. Mail program should do what it was meant to do.
 
Has this forum been sencored? I got a message that was definitely in favour of Thunderbird, but it does not show up here. Maybe the administrators can tell us what is going on?

My point in this is that I do like The Bat a lot. But I also have a few friends that use Thunderbird and are really satisfied. So I kinda need to justify to myself that it is worth using the money to upgrade to the last version.

The main thing for me is multiaccount handling and templates for each account. Does anyone know how they compare in this?

Spamhandling is also very important. Do they have a system that can "learn"?
Regards,

Oceanwatcher
 
Yes this forum is moderated. It is a RITlabs resource and irrationally negative posts are deleted by policy. We (the administrators) accept that The Bat! isn't the best email software for eveyone and respect their rights to say. But not here. This is certainly the wrong forum for that. :!:

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Oceanwatcher wrote:
The main thing for me is multiaccount handling and templates for each account. Does anyone know how they compare in this?

The Bat! Has the best multiple template / multiple account system available by far. If you need such a schema, then you are probably pretty much restricted to The Bat as your main option.

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Oceanwatcher wrote:
Spamhandling is also very important. Do they have a system that can "learn"?

The BayesIT plugin for The Bat! (installed by default) certainly does learn, as is required by any Bayesian system. :)

iviarck
 
Quote
Yes this forum is moderated. It is a RITlabs resource and irrationally negative posts are deleted by policy. We (the administrators) accept that The Bat! isn't the best email software for eveyone and respect their rights to say. But not here. This is certainly the wrong forum for that.

Well.. Since I have read the points in the post, I really can say that it was not irrational at all! Instead of deleting a posting like this, you should have done a side by side comparison of the two products. If The Bat is so much better, it should be easy.

Instead, you have managed to alienate me, a person that has been very positive to the Bat and has recommended it to many people. Your way of treating customers is really appalling. I know a lot about sales and how to treat customers the right way. And this is definitely not it.

The only way to correct this is to restore the messages and to issue an apology. And mind you - I am not acting irrationally in this matter. I am just stunned that you are doing something that should be unthinkable.

I can understand if it was totally unrelated to the questiones asked. But the post that you deleted was directly to the point, even if it was not in favour of The Bat. But there are no warning when you sign up for the forum that all messages that are negative to The Bat will be deleted?

You have managed to really get me interested in Thunderbird by doing all this. And that will hurt your sales. If you do not care about anything else, you should care about that.

I will make sure that the major computermagazine in Norway get to know all this and they will also be informed about the things I have learnt so far about the programs.
Regards,

Oceanwatcher
 
The posting I deleted was unfairly negative toward The Bat and was from an individual who has been leaving engative posts all over this forum. His response was not as helpful as you believe it was. If you want to find out about Thunderbird's capabilities, there are plenty of places to do that. Forums, FAQs, entusiast web sites. This is the only place you can find out about The Bat!, and that's the way I would like it to stay.

As for "my sales" .. I'm just an end user, not a representative for RITlabs.

If you are genuinely interested in Thunderbird, I have no objection to that. Go ahead and I hope you find that it meets your needs.

I don't believe it will handle your actual requirements, and I have said that. The post I deleted completely missed that point and was irrationally  biased to the personal views of an individual who seems only to have come to this forum to denegrate this unique piece of software.

Of course, I have no intention of either restoring the offending post nor of apologising. I have a copy of the post here and it was light on fact and high on opinion. As someone who knows a lot more about The Bat! than the poster, I can assure you that keeping it in the forum in that form gave no help in making any kind of sensible comparison.
iviarck
 
I prepared a long answer here, but my browser got closed befoer i could post it. So I will be shorter this time :-)

The posting in question is here in my mailprogram. I got it and have read it. It is definitely not light on facts. Actually, it is full of facts and I really can not see how it is unfair. If any of the stated facts in his posting are not correct, please tell me.

Anyway, your actions has led me to believe that you are trying to hide something. So I have done something I normally not do. Downloaded Thunderbird to compare it myself. And this is what I have found:

Thunderbird uses the same method as The Bat for spamcontrol.

Multiple accounts can be handled the same way in both programs.

The Bat has a better addressbook. However, this is likely to change. Thunderbird is evolving rapidly. This is typically for an opensourceproject as this.

The template system in The Bat is definitely more powerful than the one in Thunderbird. But again, Thunderbird is opensource, and can easily be extended to fix this.

They can both take advantage of encryption. The Bat is not alone in this anymore.

Virtual folders is called searchfolders in Thunderbird. As far as I can see, it is essentially the same.

Mailfiltering seems to be more powerful in The Bat.

It seem to come down to the service and support for the program in addition to the attitude of the people that are available to help.....
Regards,

Oceanwatcher
 
I understand that you can't see what was so "off" about the post, but I could. I know The Bat! very well and Thunderbird slightly. Other than the comment about system resources, everything else stated about The Bat! was either wrong or a trivial criticism. So, yes - the 'facts' presented were not really facts, were certainly very "subjective" and thus, in my informed opinion, not worth keeping. Add to that, comments like "got sick of it" and "long live open source" are pointless and purely designed to antagonise.

You may also be unaware of the fact that I have previously had to remove other derogatory posts from "GOD00007 007" from elsewhere on the forum. So the feigned shock and surprise comments are also nothing more than a ploy to confuse you. Every forum gets them in the end - they are known on Usenet as "trolls".

As you have discovered for yourself, on the whole The Bat! is, and always has been more powerful than ThunderBird.

If you think that being misled by someone with an agenda to denegrate a powerful piece of work through innaccuracy in favour of (what may or may not turn out to be) their own opinion constitutes "a good attitude", then that is your choice. I disagree with that myself and would rather support you with accurate statements. You also have to bear in mind that this forum is web-indexed and I have no desire to see such wild exaggeration come up on a Google search for clear information about The Bat.

Please appreciate that I have clear instructions from the owners of this forum to remove any such wildly unfavourable, rude and ridiculing posts. You will also see many unfavourable but fair posts left exactly where they are scattered thoughout this forum.

Now. Back to the real conversation :)

There is a myth about opensource. That "it evolves quicker". Some projects certainly do proceed quicker, especially in the early stages. I use a lot of Opensource software myself. Most of it hasn't moved much (if at all) for 2 or 3 years in some cases. Others have trickled forward once they hit a peak. Also, the people on the projects can often change as they move into more professional pastimes. A major exception is The Gimp, which keeps getting better and better. FireFox doesn't seem to have progressed very far beyond the basic browser with a few security fix releases coming out after the main release, but it is certainly my browser of choice. Miranda-IM is my messenger of choice. VNC is my support software of choice.

There are a vast number of plugins being evolved for the FireFox project and that's where it moves rapidly. Thunderbird is likely to go the same way - in that you will have to rely on plugins from enthusiasts to cover the features you want to see covered. In the case of FireFox, many of my favoured / more complex plugins, particularly those that manage tabs better, have been evolved and then withdrawn when they started to conflict. Indeed, plugin conflict is a major bugbear in many of the Opensource programs I like.

By contrast, The Bat! is developed by a stable and committed team of talented programmers. It is their fulltime job to evolve this software and keep it ahead of the competition as best they can. I think they do a great job of that. The Bat! also has a 3rd party plugin community (not to the same scale as Thunderbird / Firefox, for sure) and a dedicated user group that evolve some excellent macro / filter sets (which extend the program functionality of themselves).

As for whether or not the Thunderbird address book will reach the sophistication of The Bat's - I wouldn't like to say. But I have my doubts that they will get there with the templates - The Bat's have already been evolved for 7 years and are wonderful for that. As for the template / address book integration - that's a whole new order of excellence and facility that I doubt you will even have had time to appreciate. Mass mailing using Quick templates. Quick templates with macros. Regular expressions to extract data from source mails.

If you'd rather judge the software in the light of the unwritten rules of this forum, then that's up to you. If you want to dismiss me as unhelpful and dismissive, again, that's up to you. I respectfully recommend that you browse this forum and (more importantly) the TBUDL archives to find out what kind of support there really is out there for The Bat! :)

In fact, if you were to communicate with the TBOT users mailing list on YahooGroups, you would find many ThunderBird / The Bat! cross users and get a far more accurate impression of the differences. Without fail, every one forced to use Thunderbird for its (currently) superior IMAP behaviour bemoans the loss of The Bat's Templates and address book. POP3 users tend to stay with The Bat! IMAP users are longing to come back.
iviarck
 
Hey, I agree about Calypso. But that's history, sadly. It was cleanly presented, logical and simple to use with just the right amount of functionality. I use The Bat now - Poco Mail wasn't bad, but garish. Pegasus is incredibly good but not for the faint hearted. Thunderbird is nicely presented and does a good job with the images problem, though I have an aversion to anything with Netscape in its DNA. But why does no-one mention Opera's E-mail & news client? Fast and interesting. Still, The Bat, for all its paranoia, seems the best compromise. (I'll wait for the next few maintenances releases before upgrading to 3.5 though!) ;) [QUOTE]
 
I am still on The Bat and Outlook. But I really want to move away from Outlook.

My main reason for sticking with it is Plaxo. It really help me to keep contacts up to date. And I think it will give Thunderbird a real boost. A lot of people are really longing to get off Outlook.

I think the same is the case with Firefox vs. IE. When a real alternative came out (yes, I know Opera and use that too. I am Norwegian), very many people switched.

I do love The Bat for many reasons. And I would love to use it for all my mail. But a couple of things keep me from it. So it would actually be nice to know some kind of roadmap.

When can we expect to see Plaxo for The Bat? I know it depends on Plaxo a lot, but it also depends on RitLabs to push for it and make themselves available for integration.

How is HTML handled? Can I create HTML mail in the latest version of The Bat? Can I read it as a normal HTML mail?

I know HTML can pose security risks, but it should be up to the user to decide what level of security she or he wants.

In addition to a good mailprogram, I need a good calendar program. And I really prefer that it is not integrated into the mail program (I would have preferred that the addressbook in The Bat was a separate application too.....). Does The Bat work well together with any calendar program out there?

I appreciate all answers. :-)
Regards,

Oceanwatcher
 
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So it would actually be nice to know some kind of roadmap.

First thing that's supposed to get done, is to get rid of IMAP bugs. For the rest, nothing is known.

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When can we expect to see Plaxo for The Bat? I know it depends on Plaxo a lot, but it also depends on RitLabs to push for it and make themselves available for integration.

That's totally up to Plato, TB supports all kind of plug-ins, so I guess you'd nest harry the folks there.

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How is HTML handled? Can I create HTML mail in the latest version of The Bat? Can I read it as a normal HTML mail?

HTML is handled fine, both for creating as for reading. The only thing you can't do is seeing pictires that are not sent with the message.

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In addition to a good mailprogram, I need a good calendar program

Several folks use Time and Choas with TB. You could try that.
__________________________________
I'm just a user of The Bat! I don't work for Ritlabs.
 
Seems Plaxo is setting their priorities according to how much push they get from users that want their product as a plug-in... So it would not be a bad idea to get your customers to push for it.

On the other hand, Plaxo support would be a good marketing move for you. So it also makes sense for you to get in touch with Plaxo to speed up the process.

I hope you can work something out. The Bat is a nice product, but is a little too unknown.
Regards,

Oceanwatcher
 
well if you're talking about outlook and not outlook express, then i must say - outlook 2003 is the best damn mail app on the market today, since calypso is dead.

but it is completely different price range from the bat  and should i mention that thunderbird is free :)
 
Well, Sir, I beg to differ.

While Outlook may be nice, the addressbook system is a far cry behind The Bat.

I think The Bat still has the best addressbook and template system available. And I also love the fact that it does NOT have a calendar. I like specialised apps.

Regarding Thunderbird, I think it is the biggest competitor to The Bat right now. If they can improve the two things The Bat does well, I think The Bat has to improve a lot to be able to hang in there. But that may take a while. And in the meantime, The Bat can continue to improve.

One very good reason for me to go The Bat or Thunderbird is the ability to handle multiple mailaccounts with multiple identities. How is Outlook 2003 doing there? The Bat shines, and Thunderbird is as close to The Bat as it is possible to get on this.
Regards,

Oceanwatcher
 
Quote
But why does no-one mention Opera's E-mail & news client? Fast and interesting.
What? Opera? You have tested this thing? No way! It is just very poor addon to excelent browser. For example look on html emails in client and browser. LOL
See also bug from many years "begin" or PGP/GnuPG support. And super feature it is "only M2 diecide when to clean from deleted emails your database". ROTFL For me Opera it is worst email client(M2) and one of the best browsers on earth.  
 
There are two things why I'm on the change to TheBat from Thunderbird:

1. If you get your messages all day long every few minutes Thunderbird ceases to get the mail after a certain amount of time. After that you have to get the messages manually one time to 'wake up' the automatism.

2. The easy way to sort incoming Mails automatically in prteddeifned folders.

What I don not like is that the Bat has proprietary mail format. I would prefer to save my mail in the Mbox format.

sheepdog
 
I was reading this thread i couldn't resist to let you know some of my misadventures i had by using Thunderbird.
It's quite good, and trendy only by its popularity, but it lacks affidability, stability and it's death-slow.
Somewhile last year ago, i definitely said STOP to outlook/oe due to indecent performance and serious lack of built-in backup-restore mail/prefs and obviously an amazing lack of a serious multi-accout support.
I installed Thunderbird to give it a try and i was happy, my configuration needed at least 10 accounts (the current one i'm using with TheBat!) so i started creating them.
I was able to add up to 5 accounts and check the mail correctly, then, it stopped downloading messages and the status bar freezed ("looking.." or something like). Well, i retried it some time ago, and currently it has the same problems, while i was able to add another account (6 in total).
Anyway, one morning i opened it and started losing mail messages like the rand() function.
Great, isn't it! Thousand and thousand of messages, fortuantely backed up, but i lost *EVERY-SINGLE-MAIL*

This post is far from telling you how bad Thunderbird is, but, really, you have to consider very well if your business is email-dependant.
No, i'm not a spammer, but i have to give technical support to the products i sell, so i need a really stable, fast, secure email system, and TheBat is really the type of application let's you say "Ehi, if i'll not be able to reply in time, surely i'll have to complain with my connection, not the email client".

Surely TheBat! has something to fix, to add and to make better, but it let's you work, and not to waste time by trying to do something simple.
 
Several months after the last post, I don´t see any news
regarding the Thunderbird/Plaxo integration.

However on Plaxo site, they posted this demo http://www.plaxo.com/api/widget_demo

And it doesn´t look to difficult to achieve an
initial level of integration.
 
theBat is really far from being perfect, but to compare it to Thunderbird really sounds like a joke, as someone above said. It's like to compare Word to Notepad.
 
I can only echo what's been said already. This comparison isn't even a horse race. Blunderbird is SLOWER THAN GOVERNMENT, uses a TON of resource to achieve this snail's pace, and has about as many features as a rock.

The Bat! isn't perfect, agreed, but there is no comparison here.
 
Okay, I am an ex-thunderbird user... Used it for almost 2 years and now moved to TB.
Thunderbird is OK, but The Bat is better

I would recommend TheBat over ThunderBird any day
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