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Moaning, venting and complaining about upgrade policy., a bit-bucket for distracting off-topic messages
 
#1
14.0468  
I'll be using this thread as a bit-bucket for off-topic (or largely off-topic) messages about Ritlabs' upgrade policy, that were originally posted in other threads, where they distracted from the subject under discussion. To keep those threads productive and informative, I'll be moving any such messages here. Additionally, I may hide or delete offending messages for other reasons, like trolling, spamming or the use of faul language in a public forum.

ps: I had to use some trickery to get this message to the top of this thread - its actual posting date is April 12 :)
I volunteer as a moderator to help keep the forum tidy. I do not work for Ritlabs SRL.
 
 
 
#2
1.2309  
The last time this happened I was forced to upgrade. I don't think that it's fair that I am again forced to  upgrade to continue using The Bat. There should be steeper discount to those of us who have been loyal over the years and years.
 
 
 
#3
19.183  
Quote
Bill L wrote:
The last time this happened I was forced to upgrade. I don't think that it's fair that I am again forced to  upgrade to continue using The Bat. There should be steeper discount to those of us who have been loyal over the years and years.

It's not fair that Google changes their system, forcing Ritlabs to scramble to get it fixed in short order.  I think their less than two day turnaround is fantastic. We should not expect free upgrades for life when it is obvious that Ritlabs has to be able to respond so quickly to things outside of their control.

I suppose one can complain that the upgrade pricing is not "low enough" but the pricing seems fair to me.

Thanks to Ritlabs for getting this fixed!
 
 
 
#4
1.3343  
In this simple way we were forced to upgrade the software from 8 to 9 :P
 
 
 
#5
14.3118  
Maxim,
A BIG THANKS for fixing this so quickly. I'm glad I upgraded. Support for TB! is excellent and worth the upgrade fee.
david
 
 
 
#6
1.3343  
I assume ver 8 is not going to be updated to work with gmail flawlessly again and the only solution is to pay and upgrade, right?
Edited: Marek K. ZBOROWSKI - 12 April 2020 21:29:20
 
 
 
#7
0  
first off, i did pay the upgrade today from 8->9.1.10  seems i (had to) 50.00usd. i've used it for years b/c its really good but recently run it in wine on linux so i can get the hell away from windows. thought it was a wine issue or vpn issue at first until i saw the logs.  

curious, were most email clients(win & linux), around the world having to fix their clients and-or upgrade their clients too because of this google change?

a lot of us around the world are off work due to national quarantine mandates. so every dollar leaving the wallet is a much bigger deal than prior to this. mos certainly i get it you developers require pay for your work but was a fix for version 8 users that difficult to roll out along side the version 9 update?

 
 
 
 
#8
0  
Quote
Marek K. ZBOROWSKI wrote:
That's a shame my previous post was removed without any information. Is this how you are dealing with your users who post inconvenient messages?

I made it hidden because you misquoted a fellow user, '4648', thereby putting words in his mouth that he did not say.  You just made the same error with a post by Roman Jedrzejewski. I will hide that post too.

If you have problems with moderation, you can complain to me in a private message. In the forum, it is off-topic. So, do not respond to this message.
Also, the forum is in English, so do not post in Polish.
I volunteer as a moderator to help keep the forum tidy. I do not work for Ritlabs SRL.
 
 
 
#9
1.2309  
I bought a license (uprgrade from earlier) less than 1.5 years ago. Now I can throw the program in the trash because it doesn't work (Gmail and TLS problem). I do not need fountains from the newer version. The program should work to support the basics. The licensing method for this program needs to be rethought
 
 
 
#10
3.5238  
Quote
Daniel van Rooijen wrote:

If you have problems with moderation, you can complain to me in a private message. In the forum, it is off-topic. So, do not respond to this message.
I would gladly do that, but - what may surprise you - private messages on this forum do not work.
Edited: Marek K. ZBOROWSKI - 12 April 2020 21:33:58
 
 
 
#11
3.3889  
Actually I agree. This is type of update that every licensed user should get. Not everyone needs new features or icons, but this is serious bugfix.

I've been using The Bat since v4 and it's always been good software. Unfortunately, lately it's getting more and more buggy. Version 9 is the worst of all. I upgraded after few weeks since release and had impression it was early beta not final.
Edited: Arek - 13 April 2020 10:43:01
 
 
 
#12
4.6273  
Suppose I bought a new version v.9 (underdeveloped, in beta). Currently, I can't count on a free upgrade to version 10 (upgrade policy). And what if you release version v.10 in 3 months? So I will spend 45 euros for the program for 3 months and then leave me without any support?
 
 
 
#13
2.9698  
Hi Everbody...

I am very disappointed that Ritalabs chooses to make their product obsolete after short time, by refusing to provide a patch for recent versions of TheBat! (8.x) which are now incapable of performing the basic function of an email client program: send and receive emails (for gmail accounts).  Most companies provide patches for problems that make their software unusable, unless they are really, really old.

This has happened before and I had to pay for upgrades that I did not otherwise needed, just to keep TheBat! operational.

I wrote Ritalabs asking for a patch and I got the same answer others got:

Alexander said:

"... Google has started using new types of certificates on their mail servers which had not been supported by The Bat! We have implemented the new algorithms in The Bat! v9.1.12. Please update the program...  Unfortunately, we cannot patch the older versions of The Bat! In order to use the new version of The Bat! you would need to purchase an upgrade to The Bat! v9 if you own a license for previous versions of the program."

Very disappointed.

I get that upgrades cost money but they should be an option, not the only way to keep the program working! at least not for a version that is so recent (my version is 8.8.9).

As a matter of fact, what we need for the lack of capability of TheBat! to keep managing Gmail despite their usual policy of constantly changing their security certificates is not an real upgrade, but just a patch to prevent the program to become useless after short time.  We are not asking newer functions, but just the same ones we used to have to keep the program doing what it is supposed to do: the very basic function of sending and receiving email!

Here is part of my reply to Ritalabs my disappointed feedback:

"...by refusing to provide a patch, Ritalabs is rendering Version 8.x useless. This ridiculous short life span is unacceptable for a program that we expect keep using for long time... if Ritalabs wants to charge customers $50 dollars per year...  sure they can try, but at least say that openly in advance:.  in practical terms, for gmail users this programa works as a a membership that costs $50 us dollars per year! Then future customers may decide for themselves. Or tell them: is great except that it become useless for Gmail after short time! Unless you buy again with only 20% discount."

I do not know if Ritalabs care (I am guessing no),

Despite liking most of TheBat features, I will be giving negative reviews because of this problem. I do not believe my reaction is just capricious and I have paid for upgrades more than once in the past... I just don't want to do it every year. But other than stop buying a product or change for another product, bad reviews is the only mean of defense for customers.
Edited: V Per - 12 April 2020 21:37:50
 
 
 
#14
4.8581  
Quote
Victor Pereda wrote:
Hi Everbody...

I am very disappointed that Ritalabs chooses to make their product obsolete after short time, by refusing to provide a patch for recent versions of TheBat! (8.x) which are now incapable of performing the basic function of an email client program: send and receive emails (for gmail accounts).  Most companies provide patches for problems that make their software unusable, unless they are really, really old.

This has happened before and I had to pay for upgrades that I did not otherwise needed, just to keep TheBat! operational.

I wrote Ritalabs asking for a patch and I got the same answer others got:

Alexander said:

"... Google has started using new types of certificates on their mail servers which had not been supported by The Bat! We have implemented the new algorithms in The Bat! v9.1.12. Please update the program...  Unfortunately, we cannot patch the older versions of The Bat! In order to use the new version of The Bat! you would need to purchase an upgrade to The Bat! v9 if you own a license for previous versions of the program."

Very disappointed.

I get that upgrades cost money but they should be an option, not the only way to keep the program working! at least not for a version that is so recent (my version is 8.8.9).

As a matter of fact, what we need for the lack of capability of TheBat! to keep managing Gmail despite their usual policy of constantly changing their security certificates is not an real upgrade, but just a patch to prevent the program to become useless after short time.   We are not asking newer functions, but just the same ones we used to have  to keep the program doing what it is supposed to do: the very basic function of sending and receiving email!

Here is part of my reply to Ritalabs my disappointed feedback:

"...by refusing to provide a patch, Ritalabs is rendering Version 8.x useless. This ridiculous short life span is unacceptable for a program that we expect keep using for long time... if Ritalabs wants to charge customers $50 dollars per year...  sure they can try, but at least say that openly in advance:.  i n practical terms, for gmail users t  his programa works as a a membership that costs $50 us dollars per year!  Then future customers may decide for themselves. Or tell them: is great except that it become useless for Gmail after short time! Unless you buy again with only 20% discount."

I do not know if Ritalabs care (I am guessing no),

Despite liking most of TheBat features, I will be giving negative reviews because of this problem. I do not believe my reaction is just capricious and I have paid for upgrades more than once in the past... I just don't want to do it every year. But other than stop buying a product or change for another product, bad reviews is the only mean of defense for customers.

I totally agree with your point of view. And since I do not agree to pay a third time to continue using the same email client, I have searched and found others with comparable quality and friendlier interface than The Bat (and with a single payment that entitles you to all updates forever).
So... bye bye, The Bat
 
 
 
#15
0  
Quote
Marek K. ZBOROWSKI wrote:
I assume ver 8 is not going to be updated to work with gmail flawlessly again and the only solution is to pay and upgrade, right?
I think the question should be 'is v8 still supported?' If it is, v8 should get the fix. If it is not, meaning that v8 lost support as soon as v9 was released, I will never upgrade The Bat! again. I am actually at that stage now, but the above just entrenches my position.
Stay safe everybody,
DrTeeth
Edited: DrTeeth - 12 April 2020 21:37:50
 
 
 
#16
0  
Quote
Bill L wrote:
The last time this happened I was forced to upgrade. I don't think that it's fair that I am again forced to  upgrade to continue using The Bat. There should be steeper discount to those of us who have been loyal over the years and years.
I think that there should be a steeper discount, full-stop. With a better discount I would upgrade without thinking twice. In that situation, I could almost forgive the fact, that all bar one of the bugs that I have reported, have still not been fixed.

Stay safe
DrTeeth
Edited: DrTeeth - 12 April 2020 21:37:50
 
 
 
#17
0  
Quote
Mefisto wrote:
In this simple way we were forced to upgrade the software from 8 to 9 :P
Once I cannot use v8 any longer, I will be leaving The Bat! for good.
Stay Safe
DrTeeth
 
 
 
#18
0  
I will be trying version 8.3. I think is ridiculous that we have to be looking for solutions to should be solved by a patch or a support guidance by Ritlabs.

As most of you guys.. I have paid for "updates" before just because of this one problem.. but is getting tiring and feels unfair. It bothers me that I may have to search again for another powerful and customizable email program,

I used to be user of Eudora which I liked because it was meant to be customized and because if its flexibility. TheBat has those features too.. I am a heavy user of email with multiple addresses, use virtual folders, filters, etc.,

The learning curve of TheBat takes time, but once you get familiar it does what you want... except of course.. keeping up with Gmail security certificates.. that is such a mayor failure in TheBat that I wonder if is made on purpose to force updates payment.

Does anybody out there has tried a program that has similar features of customization and powerful tools? I tried Thunderbird but in my opinion is not even close... there were features missing.

thanks and good luck. I still hope somebody finds a sensible solution for this unfair problem.
 
 
 
#19
4.6273  
Unfortunately, I was forced to buy the v9 version. With this approach to the client, Ritlabs cannot count on me in the future. But in my opinion, if the v8.3 version works correctly and the v8.8 version does not work, it means that the later version of TheBat! the function has been taken away. The author should improve version v8.8 and add the function that was originally or give licenses to version v9.

Hey Ritlabs! Do you know what is good PR? Don't sleep because you lose loyal customers who are the most valuable
Edited: Mefisto - 12 April 2020 21:37:51
 
 
 
#20
0  
[expletives removed by moderator].  I needed to register here to just to post this. This is unbelievable that i need to downgrade to older version of The Bat! 8 to use it properly. If developer doesn't provide any sort of patch for this problem, i'll never buy another key from him. Goodbye from user who has used this client for way over 10 years.
Edited: Daniel van Rooijen - 12 April 2020 21:40:03
 
 
 
#21
1.673  
Quote
Alexander Idels wrote:
After long day of searching solution i can confirm, that in  version 8.3  of TheBat gmail work properly. Hope it will help
Alexander, grat job.
It works. RitLabs should make some update of 8.x version to work with gmail currently because version 9.x is alpha version and no finished yet (Christmas joke). How it is possible to sell product which is not finished and right know clients from all old versions must buy it. This is ridiculous!
 
 
 
#22
0  
Quote
DrTeeth wrote:
Quote
Mefisto wrote:
In this simple way we were forced to upgrade the software from 8 to 9 :P
Once I cannot use v8 any longer, I will be leaving The Bat! for good.
Stay Safe
DrTeeth

You are not the only one who made such a decision. I bought an email client which is supposed to work - it may no longer be supported, but it must have feature and functionality I have paid for - it should be like a buing a car it may be a few years old but it still rides. I will never again recommend TB! to anyone else and rate this program and its support as very bad.
This policy - I mean forcing users to pay for a functionality they have already paid for - will sink RL some day. The sooner they understand it, the better.

PS. Private messages still do not work for me.
 
 
 
#23
1.1035  
Quote
Jay Walker wrote:
Quote
With all due respect to everyone who is complaining this way... and, presumably, hoping to pressure Ritlabs into doing as they want... I have to say this type of griping is off-topic and tiresome. FWIW, I know at least one person who is still using TB 4 or 5 for all of her considerable email correspondence... business correspondence on which her livelihood depends. Why does it work for her? Because her email server is not Gmail. It is not at all accurate to claim that connecting to Gmail is a basic functionality of TB. Ritlabs cannot reasonably be expected to dance to every whim of Google with full backward compatibility. I do not say that they should not put out a patch for TB 8 at least. I only say that this is something that should be requested, not demanded. And, anyway, it sounds like at least one solution and possibly two have already been presented here for the TB 8 problem with Gmail. So before demanding that Ritlabs fix your Gmail problem for you, please consider moving your email to a different server. Gmail can easily be configured to forward all of your mail to another email address. And if that is not convenient, either (1) Revert to version 8.3 or (2) Specify the /TLS_DISABLE_ECDHE parameter in the command line. Let's focus on those solutions, while giving Maxim and others at Ritlabs time to consider what else, if anything, they want to do with respect to TB 8 or earlier. Personally, I find this topic of interest. It pertains to a problem that I too was having. But now the topic is getting hijacked by persons who only want to vent their personal complaints rather than offer practical information. If anyone does not want to keep on using TB, that's his/her decision. Why do all of us have to hear about that? Let's move on.
It may be we all disagree with Ritlabs' paid upgrade policy. In the good old days of early computing, when you bought an application you had the right to use it and receive its updates for free forever, and almost all other email clients follow the same policy today. And it's even more annoying if they don't bother to fix bugs from previous versions to force customers to buy and pay again for the current version.

And downgrading or running the program in console mode with added parameters are not reasonable solutions.
 
 
 
#24
13.8237  
I agree with Jay Walker; this whining is becoming tiresome. I had hoped his post would end this. The upgrade policy is to ensure that users are protected from any unanticipated problems or internet protocol changes that happen during the support period. When TLS 1.2 was implemented, those using versions prior to 8 needed to upgrade if their ISP demanded that protocol. That wasn't Ritlab's fault. When Gmail implemented OAUTH, users of prior versions who wanted that support also needed to upgrade to get the support. Again, Ritlab didn't do that: Google did. And when Gmail changed how certificates are handled, that also was an unanticipated change that Ritlabs addressed and promptly fixed - for the supported version, as they have always done. If you check history, each version has had an approximate life of two years - and if you want a well-maintained, secure email client, then the price is periodic upgrades.


Yes, there were/are products that offer free lifetime support for one fee, but those products aren't sustainable because no developer can continue developing new features with no income. It is our renewed upgrades that give us new features and ongoing support. I didn't like the upgrade fee, but that's the price to get the product I wanted. I agree with Jay: if you don't like the service, there's always Thunderbird for free - and even Thunderbird is now begging for donations to keep it alive.


To any administrator: Is it possible to close this thread? I think it's been beaten to death.
 
 
 
#25
0  
Quote
Jose Vicente Blanco wrote:
Quote
Jay Walker wrote:
 
Quote
With all due respect to everyone who is complaining this way... and, presumably, hoping to pressure Ritlabs into doing as they want... I have to say this type of griping is off-topic and tiresome. FWIW, I know at least one person who is still using TB 4 or 5 for all of her considerable email correspondence... business correspondence on which her livelihood depends. Why does it work for her? Because her email server is not Gmail. It is not at all accurate to claim that connecting to Gmail is a basic functionality of TB. Ritlabs cannot reasonably be expected to dance to every whim of Google with full backward compatibility. I do not say that they should not put out a patch for TB 8 at least. I only say that this is something that should be requested, not demanded. And, anyway, it sounds like at least one solution and possibly two have already been presented here for the TB 8 problem with Gmail. So before demanding that Ritlabs fix your Gmail problem for you, please consider moving your email to a different server. Gmail can easily be configured to forward all of your mail to another email address. And if that is not convenient, either (1) Revert to version 8.3 or (2) Specify the /TLS_DISABLE_ECDHE parameter in the command line. Let's focus on those solutions, while giving Maxim and others at Ritlabs time to consider what else, if anything, they want to do with respect to TB 8 or earlier. Personally, I find this topic of interest. It pertains to a problem that I too was having. But now the topic is getting hijacked by persons who only want to vent their personal complaints rather than offer practical information. If anyone does not want to keep on using TB, that's his/her decision. Why do all of us have to hear about that? Let's move on.
It may be we all disagree with Ritlabs' paid upgrade policy. In the good old days of early computing, when you bought an application you had the right to use it and receive its updates for free forever, and almost all other email clients follow the same policy today. And it's even more annoying if they don't bother to fix bugs from previous versions to force customers to buy and pay again for the current version.

And downgrading or running the program in console mode with added parameters are not reasonable solutions.
Respectfully, Jose, these are not "the good old days". Whether for better or worse, the times have changed. If you don't like the current policies of Ritlabs, no one is forcing you to stay with their product or to pay for any upgrade. You can switch to some free alternative. But it is bad form to threaten anyone's livelihood in the middle of a global economic crisis, resulting from the Covid-19 pandemic as it impacts mostly capitalist countries, even those that were formerly a part of the USSR. So let's give these guys a break... if only for simple humanitarian reasons.
 
 
 
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