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Moaning, venting and complaining about upgrade policy., a bit-bucket for distracting off-topic messages
 
#26
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Users of The Bat! or Voyager v8 who use Gmail may want to check the topic TLS Handshake Failure - appreciate any help on how to fix for possible solutions.

Apparently, specifying TLS_DISABLE_ECDHE or TLS_DISABLE_PERFECT_FORWARD_SECRECY on the command line (or in your shortcut) may solve the problem. These are global switches though, so they could also affect how The Bat interacts with your other email providers.
I volunteer as a moderator to help keep the forum tidy. I do not work for Ritlabs SRL.
 
 
 
#27
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Jay Walker wrote:
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Jose Vicente Blanco wrote:
 
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Jay Walker  wrote:
 
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With all due respect to everyone who is complaining this way... and, presumably, hoping to pressure Ritlabs into doing as they want... I have to say this type of griping is off-topic and tiresome. FWIW, I know at least one person who is still using TB 4 or 5 for all of her considerable email correspondence... business correspondence on which her livelihood depends. Why does it work for her? Because her email server is not Gmail. It is not at all accurate to claim that connecting to Gmail is a basic functionality of TB. Ritlabs cannot reasonably be expected to dance to every whim of Google with full backward compatibility. I do not say that they should not put out a patch for TB 8 at least. I only say that this is something that should be requested, not demanded. And, anyway, it sounds like at least one solution and possibly two have already been presented here for the TB 8 problem with Gmail. So before demanding that Ritlabs fix your Gmail problem for you, please consider moving your email to a different server. Gmail can easily be configured to forward all of your mail to another email address. And if that is not convenient, either (1) Revert to version 8.3 or (2) Specify the /TLS_DISABLE_ECDHE parameter in the command line. Let's focus on those solutions, while giving Maxim and others at Ritlabs time to consider what else, if anything, they want to do with respect to TB 8 or earlier. Personally, I find this topic of interest. It pertains to a problem that I too was having. But now the topic is getting hijacked by persons who only want to vent their personal complaints rather than offer practical information. If anyone does not want to keep on using TB, that's his/her decision. Why do all of us have to hear about that? Let's move on.
 It may be we all disagree with Ritlabs' paid upgrade policy. In the good old days of early computing, when you bought an application you had the right to use it and receive its updates for free forever, and almost all other email clients follow the same policy today. And it's even more annoying if they don't bother to fix bugs from previous versions to force customers to buy and pay again for the current version.

And downgrading or running the program in console mode with added parameters are not reasonable solutions.
 
Respectfully, Jose, these are not "the good old days". Whether for better or worse, the times have changed. If you don't like the current policies of Ritlabs, no one is forcing you to stay with their product or to pay for any upgrade. You can switch to some free alternative. But it is bad form to threaten anyone's livelihood in the middle of a global economic crisis, resulting from the Covid-19 pandemic as it impacts mostly capitalist countries, even those that were formerly a part of the USSR. So let's give these guys a break... if only for simple humanitarian reasons.
Yes, you're right, these are not the old days but there are still quite a few email clients that maintain the "single payment and free updates forever" policy.


But I have to admit that I have a special predilection for The Bat, I have used it since its earliest versions many years ago and I like it. So for now I will continue to use V.8.3 but I will also be testing other clients, I am sure that I will find one or two as good as The Bat and with a reasonable payment policy.
 
 
 
#28
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Jay Walker wrote:
FWIW, I know at least one person who is still using TB 4 or 5 for all of her considerable email correspondence... business correspondence on which her livelihood depends. Why does it work for her? Because her email server is not Gmail. It is not at all accurate to claim that connecting to Gmail is a basic functionality of TB. Ritlabs cannot reasonably be expected to dance to every whim of Google with full backward compatibility.
I just really hope that you still use a rotary dial telephone because phone vendors cannot be reasonably expected to provide you with cutting-edge technologies such as smartphones and dance to every whim of yours. That's how your logic looks from a distance.
 
 
 
#29
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Andrzej Czerkowski wrote:
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Jay Walker wrote:
FWIW, I know at least one person who is still using TB 4 or 5 for all of her considerable email correspondence... business correspondence on which her livelihood depends. Why does it work for her? Because her email server is not Gmail. It is not at all accurate to claim that connecting to Gmail is a basic functionality of TB. Ritlabs cannot reasonably be expected to dance to every whim of Google with full backward compatibility.
I just really hope that you still use a rotary dial telephone because phone vendors cannot be reasonably expected to provide you with cutting-edge technologies such as smartphones and dance to every whim of yours. That's how your logic looks fr om a distance.
Andrzej, amusing as your remark was, I think you may be posting to the wrong thread. The gripes have been moved elsewhere. But, leaving that aside, where I live no phone company ever exchanged my old rotary or push-button phone with a free smartphone. If you know a place wh ere that sort of thing happens, I might like to move there.  :D  
 
 
 
#30
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I do not think is fair to label customers concerns about their recent version of ThaBat stop working because gmail security certificates changes as angry moaners
.
1. This idea that the problem is that we use Gmail as if that would not be so common or if good handling of gmail would not be a basic function we should expect in a high quality email client program in this day and age, seems like a stretch  to justify the APPARENT lack of interest by Ritlabs to provide a patch for version 8.x.

I get that TheBat could not be ideal program for gmail users... but that would be reasonable only if we would be warned about TheBat limitations in handling gmail, at the time of purchase. Then we would not be surprised or disappointed when this problems comes to us. We are expecting to buy a top level email client program, otherwise we would be using free software... and from a top level email client program it is obvious that we should be able to happily use email addresses from our own domains, but also gmail addresses, which are part supper common of personal and business email use all over the world, for multiple reasons.

So, this picture of representing this as a gmail problem... is does not make sense. But I get that we can have different opinions and views. This is mine.

2. Then the idea of the moderator of if you want a patch ask for it nicely, rather than angrily moaning misses one critical point:

We initially had done exactly what the moderator suggested and asked for the patch and sent feedback very nicely. More than once, because this problem has happened before... and only after Ritlabs responded the only solution was to buy the upgrade... with not a hint that they were interested or open to provide a patch or trying to help us in some other way, we were pushed away from very courteous mode into a concerned and frustrated mode. Remember that email means our livelihood for many of us and is just stopped working completely for our gmail accounts. It is a not a small matter.

So, we are not angry unreasonable people who expect free updates for life... we are only expecting the program to keep being usable for all the types of email we were said TheBat was good for, which includes gmail.. at least for a couple years, before buying a new upgrade.

I hope the team at Ritlabs is less adverse to customer critical feedback than the moderator who moved into the moaners bucket, and instead takes advantage of the feedback, both positive and negative, to improve their products and their policies.

That would be a win win approach.
 
 
 
#31
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I had to upgrade to v9 version for gmail to work but my friend has older version - v.6 and gmail works fine on it... I don't understand how it is possible...
 
 
 
#32
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That's simple - it's all about cash.
 
 
 
#33
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Marek K. ZBOROWSKI wrote:
That's simple - it's all about cash.
I could not agree more. I have two programs from Terabyte Unlinited. They are both regularly and frequently updated. There has not been a money-grabbing major version update in literally YEARS.
 
 
 
#34
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Mefisto wrote:
I bought a license (uprgrade from earlier) less than 1.5 years ago. Now I can throw the program in the trash because it doesn't work (Gmail and TLS problem). I do not need fountains from the newer version. The program should work to support the basics. The licensing method for this program needs to be rethought

I am still on v6.8 and use gmail lightly using POP3 protocol.  I haven't notice any problems.  What problems are you folks referring to?  Are you using IMAP protocol?
 
 
 
#35
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L Chen wrote:
I am still on v6.8 and use gmail lightly using POP3 protocol.  I haven't notice any problems.  What problems are you folks referring to?  Are you using IMAP protocol?
Please stay on-topic. (i.e. complaints about Ritlabs' upgrade policy).

Gmail problems have been discussed in several threads, but the most recent and informative one is
https://www.ritlabs.com/en/auth-forums/forum4/topic14727/
I volunteer as a moderator to help keep the forum tidy. I do not work for Ritlabs SRL.
 
 
 
#36
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Dear Daniel van Rooijen,

it is quite insightful how you handle criticism about the pricing and your customers in general.
As you clearly don't value feedback and are unwilling to find a sweetspot for pricing with a customerbase which is willing to pay every 2 years, I guess you simply aren't interested in your business that much. There where a lot of valid points made in the discussion and your lack of interest and your spelling ("Moaning, venting and complaining") shows that you must have other means to do your living. I for myself am done with your arrogance against your customers and the intransparent pricing. Maybe you simply think your customers are "locked in" into your software and you can take your customers hostage in a way ... but no, you are wrong.
Have a nice future. Over and out.
Edited: Joerg Kraft - 06 May 2020 17:24:34
 
 
 
#37
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Joerg,

You seem to have missed the line below each of my messages that says: "I volunteer as a moderator to help keep the forum tidy. I do not work for Ritlabs SRL."

I am a user just like you. I am volunteering as a moderator because the forum was being swamped with spam and had become unusable. If people want to complain about prices that is fine with me -- but in the proper topic, NOT in other (highly technical) topics where it was sabotaging and frustrating the ongoing useful discussions.

For what it's worth, I've been using The Bat for almost twenty years and after the original license, I've only bought 2 or 3 upgrades in all those years, so the REAL cost of using The Bat has been minimal to me. The discussions about 'expensive' upgrades keep coming back year after year after year though. I'm not saying that Ritlabs' pricing scheme is the best, but compared to the mandatory subscription or maintenance model that ever more software publishers use, I like Ritlabs' voluntary upgrade scheme much better and I find its pricing reasonable. Also, I do not believe that Google, Inc. is colluding with Ritlabs to help them sell more upgrades.
I volunteer as a moderator to help keep the forum tidy. I do not work for Ritlabs SRL.
 
 
 
#38
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Daniel,
I was so pleased when you became an administrator because the forum was sometimes inundated with spam. You eliminated it. And I regret that, despite your best efforts to encourage and support constructive discussion and provide useful tips, there are still those who do not understand. Rest assured that the majority of us who post here appreciate what you do.
david
 
 
 
#39
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Thanks for the kind words, David!
I volunteer as a moderator to help keep the forum tidy. I do not work for Ritlabs SRL.
 
 
 
#40
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Sterling work Daniel, please keep it up. I don't post often but pop in and out fairly frequently and it is always good to see that someone is controlling the impossible situation that was reached when the forum was being continually spammed a while ago.

Stay well and safe


Charles
 
 
 
#41
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Brandon Staggs wrote:
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Bill L wrote:
The last time this happened I was forced to upgrade. I don't think that it's fair that I am again forced to  upgrade to continue using The Bat. There should be steeper discount to those of us who have been loyal over the years and years.

It's not fair that Google changes their system, forcing Ritlabs to scramble to get it fixed in short order.  I think their less than two day turnaround is fantastic. We should not expect free upgrades for life when it is obvious that Ritlabs has to be able to respond so quickly to things outside of their control.

I suppose one can complain that the upgrade pricing is not "low enough" but the pricing seems fair to me.

Thanks to Ritlabs for getting this fixed!
As far as I am aware, the changes have NOT been applied to v8. That version is hardly end-of-life and should have got the upgrade too. That's what 'being forced to upgrade' means.
I have always found support superb.
The upgrade fee is frankly disgusting. If it were at the level that many programs are (50%), I, for one, would upgrade without thinking and I feel that many more people would. That would in all likelihood mean MORE money for Ritlabs.
Finally, the company that produces my partitioning and boot menu program and my backup program produce frequent updates which both enhance and fix the product. It takes laterally years for a new payable upgrade appears.
Cheers
DrT
Edited: DrTeeth - 21 May 2020 18:47:57
 
 
 
#42
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As far as I am aware, the changes have NOT been applied to v8. That version is hardly end-of-life and should have got the upgrade too. That's what 'being forced to upgrade' means.

If you have followed the discussions, users of v8 can use the TLS_DISABLE_ECDHE or TLS_DISABLE_PERFECT_FORWARD_SECRECY commandline options to use Gmail with The Bat v8. As far as I know, there never was an actual need for Gmail users to upgrade to v9. With situations like this, it's usually best to give the developers and the community some time to come up with solutions. In this case, those who exercised patience were rewarded with free solutions.
I volunteer as a moderator to help keep the forum tidy. I do not work for Ritlabs SRL.
 
 
 
#43
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Hi Daniel,
I did indeed miss that change of command line, probably because I do not access my Gmail with an email client.
I was interested to see that you too have only upgraded a few times since you started using The Bat! (TB). Whatever your reasons*, I am sure that Ritlabs could make the upgrades more of a MUST upgrade rather than having a significant proportion of its user base giving it a miss.
All bar one or two of the bugs that I have reported have remained unfixed. I started using TB towards the end of v7 so I got a free upgrade to v8.

*The reasons for not upgrading are that they are too expensive and/or does not have enough enhancements/fixes to make the upgrades worthwhile, or any mixture of the two. Ritlabs could easily make upgrades a must for much more of its customer base if it were to modify its business plan.
Regards and stay safe,
DrT
PS That the forum does not send out emails for those subscribed to various topics when the option is selected speaks volumes.
 
 
 
#44
-1.4484  
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Brandon Staggs wrote:
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Bill L wrote:
The last time this happened I was forced to upgrade. I don't think that it's fair that I am again forced to  upgrade to continue using The Bat. There should be steeper discount to those of us who have been loyal over the years and years.

It's not fair that Google changes their system, forcing Ritlabs to scramble to get it fixed in short order.  I think their less than two day turnaround is fantastic. We should not expect free upgrades for life when it is obvious that Ritlabs has to be able to respond so quickly to things outside of their control.

I suppose one can complain that the upgrade pricing is not "low enough" but the pricing seems fair to me.

Thanks to Ritlabs for getting this fixed!
Well said, nice one Ritlabs :-)
Cheers
MS
 
 
 
#45
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DrTeeth wrote:
*The reasons for not upgrading are that they are too expensive and/or does not have enough enhancements/fixes to make the upgrades worthwhile, or any mixture of the two.

No, I just don't like to fix what isn't broken. I usually upgrade software when I get a new computer and have to configure everything anew anyway.
I volunteer as a moderator to help keep the forum tidy. I do not work for Ritlabs SRL.
 
 
 
#46
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Daniel van Rooijen wrote:

No, I just don't like to fix what isn't broken. I usually upgrade software when I get a new computer and have to configure everything anew anyway.
Whenever I get a new computer, I just move the hard drives over to the new hardware.
 
 
 
#47
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 The concerns, as I see, combine the following

1)  high upgrade of $50 US to version 9 Pro

2) the Gmail feature is lost prematurely on v. 8 (which is like dropping support as soon as 9 is out)

There is another concern that stuff like access violations may not be fixed.
Although, in limited use on a new puter, 9.x is doing fine.  

Right now I have 9 on a new computer.  I do like to include certain Gmail boxes in searches, so I do not have to open them up separately.

Ironically, my older puter with 7.4.2 does still search old emails there, despite the inability to sign in.  Perhaps they were mirrored on the disk from earlier connections?  Would that make sense.

Bottom line for me... the excellent virtual mailbox support of TheBat! is worth the extra $ right now, as well as including Gmail boxes in searches.

Also later, I want to find out about setting up an alternate sign-on for TheBat! for years worth of old emails that are archived, eg. on a different drive.

So, for now, will just go for the $50, hoping that this post has summarized concerns.

Consider this a smiley grump.
Edited: Steven Avery - 02 September 2020 17:40:44
 
 
 
#48
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Well, I'm still happily using Gmail in TheBat v8.8.2. In my almost two decades of using TheBat, it has only crashed on me a few times.

I use these commandline options: /nologo /TLS_DISABLE_ECDHE /TLS_DISABLE_PERFECT_FORWARD_SECRECY

I use POP3 instead of IMAP, so I have all messages stored (and searchable) locally. I would assume though, that IMAP would also let you keep local copies if you want to?
I volunteer as a moderator to help keep the forum tidy. I do not work for Ritlabs SRL.
 
 
 
#49
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Thanks, Daniel. Good to know.

I loaded my new puter with 9.2 evaluation (have the 10 extra days left).

In fact, I own 8.x up to 8.9, which I forgot when I loaded (earlier I had 7.4 on my other puter).

Can I reinstall (or uninstall and reinstall, keeping the files aside) 8.9.

Or is it too much of a hassle, and just bite the $50 to get 9.

Does 9 actually do anything not in 8?  
Might it do something worthwhile in the future? :)

Your thoughts.

Thanks!
 
 
 
#50
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I would like to say I find the upgrade policy fine.
If you want to go and try a "free" email client go ahead, and stop whining on, your choice.
Been using TB since ver 3 thanks Marck D Pearlstone :-) when looking for a full featured email cleint to replace the "free" dros Microsoft shipped at the time.
Anyway keep up the good work team
Cheers
MS
 
 
 
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